# Career Transitions - All Guest Insights

*76 guests, 111 mentions*

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## Adam Fishman
*Adam Fishman*

> "PMF stands for people, mission and financials. And these are my three criteria... you should have a set of criteria that you are unapologetically rigorous around and you should learn how to evaluate companies against that set of criteria."

**Insight:** Evaluate potential employers with the same rigor as an investor, focusing on the quality of the people, the impact of the mission, and the company's fiscal discipline.

**Tactical advice:**
- Back-channel reference your potential manager by talking to people they have managed in the past
- Ask to observe an executive meeting or a strategic offsite to see how the team handles disagreement
- Ask reverse behavioral questions to leaders about how they navigated their last strategic disagreement

*Timestamp: 00:53:23*


## Ada Chen Rekhi
*Ada Chen Rekhi*

> "My early career was pretty wild... it really comes down in a nutshell to this career concept of explore and exploit... You're either in a mode of explorer where you have a bunch of unknowns and you're testing to see whether or not you like it... Or you're exploiting, where you actually have found something that's really rich and really deep and then you're just trying to get more."

**Insight:** Early career should focus on 'exploration' with a growth mindset to find fit, followed by 'exploitation' to intentionally deepen specific skills needed for long-term goals.

**Tactical advice:**
- Use early roles to test hypotheses about company size, industry, and function.
- When in 'exploit' mode, choose roles based on specific skill gaps (e.g., growth, pricing) rather than just titles.
- Be an agent in your own career by having proactive conversations with managers about what you want to learn.

*Timestamp: 00:25:55*

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> "It's really easy to be a victim of inertia. It's really easy for all of us to be the frog where there are little things that make us uncomfortable, and we sit with them... you really have to be aware of your surroundings. You have to be aware of which way is the direction of the temperature of the water trending."

**Insight:** Avoid 'boiling the frog' by monitoring whether your current environment still provides learning and growth or if you are staying due to inertia.

**Tactical advice:**
- Evaluate your role based on the 'learning' lens: are you being challenged and growing?
- If learning has stalled, either seek new projects internally or use the 'gift of time' to learn independently for your next move.

*Timestamp: 00:32:10*


## Andy Johns
*Andy Johns*

> "It was a difficult decision to walk away from my career at the peak of it, but I guess the takeaway, and then I'll stop for a bit, is it's important for people to understand that there are formative experiences in our lives which put us in positions to where we form adaptations in order to survive, just like my attachment to achievement and how my self-worth was entirely tied up in that."

**Insight:** Major career transitions often require recognizing when professional achievement has become a maladaptive survival mechanism for personal self-worth.

**Tactical advice:**
- Evaluate if your career drive is an 'adaptation' formed to cope with past emotional wounds.
- Recognize when professional success is no longer providing fulfillment and is instead becoming detrimental to your present state.

*Timestamp: 00:18:32*

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> "The transitions that I talk about are the big fundamental ones like the transition that I've been going through myself... me, for example, stepping away from my career, at the end of the day, I wasn't running from something, I was running back towards myself. That was an act of kindness towards myself."

**Insight:** A radical career change can be a proactive act of self-compassion rather than a reactive escape from a job.

**Tactical advice:**
- Frame a career exit as 'running back towards yourself' rather than just running away from a role.
- Consider if your current career foundation is built on an identity that no longer serves you.

*Timestamp: 00:24:52*


## Ami Vora
*Ami Vora*

> "I realized that probably the most important thing is to just acknowledge that that is true for me. That I'm not going to be a person with a plan, and actually the thing that has consistently served me is to do the thing that feels right, go to the place that feels like home, work with the people who feel like my friends."

**Insight:** Prioritize intuition and cultural fit over rigid five-year plans when choosing career moves.

**Tactical advice:**
- Choose roles where you feel 'lucky' to be there rather than just following a spreadsheet of axes.
- Focus on environments where trust is a 'big unlock' for your creativity.

*Timestamp: 00:04:08*

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> "I try to just put on the coat of the job. When I wake up in the morning, I'm like, what would it be like if I were doing this job? What would I think about on my commute? Who would I have lunch with? Do I like them? What problems am I going to solve today?"

**Insight:** Use emotional simulation to evaluate if a potential role is the right fit.

**Tactical advice:**
- Visualize the daily routine of a potential job to gauge your emotional response.
- Assess the people you'll be working with as a primary factor in the decision.

*Timestamp: 00:09:03*

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> "I convinced one of them to introduce me to everyone at the office. I'd made a trade, I said, I'll buy you a fancy coffee at Coupa Cafe in downtown Palo Alto, and in exchange just introduced me to everyone... And the only call I got back was from the Head of PR... 'But we need a temp to review our press releases, so if you want to come join a temp agency, we'll tell them to send you here.' And that's what I did."

**Insight:** Getting a foot in the door at a high-growth company often requires networking and a willingness to take non-traditional or lower-level entry points.

**Tactical advice:**
- Use your network to get office tours and meet as many people as possible.
- Be willing to start as a temp or in a role you are 'overqualified' for to enter a target company.

*Timestamp: 01:13:51*


## Annie Pearl
*Annie Pearl*

> "I think there's really two paths. I think one is more formal in nature. There are associate product manager programs out there and many scaled companies... I think another "more formal" way to get into PM is really by just directly applying to a junior PM role where there's no expectation of any sort of experience. I've usually seen this work best when you're already working somewhere in some product adjacency. Maybe you're in customer support, implementation, or maybe you're a sales engineer."

**Insight:** Transitioning into PM can happen through formal APM programs or by leveraging internal roles in product-adjacent functions.

**Tactical advice:**
- Apply to APM programs at both big tech and smaller, earlier-stage companies.
- Look for internal junior PM roles if you are already in a product-adjacent role like support or sales engineering.
- Seek opportunities to shadow PMs or take on 'side' product work to demonstrate skills.

*Timestamp: 00:06:25*


## Anneka Gupta
*Anneka Gupta*

> "I definitely think doing it within the same company is a lot easier than trying to switch companies and switch jobs at the same time because when you're within a company, you've already built credibility, hopefully."

**Insight:** Internal transfers are the most effective path into product management because they leverage existing credibility and domain knowledge.

**Tactical advice:**
- Join a product-adjacent function (Support, Sales, Eng) and build relationships with the product team.
- In small startups, volunteer for product-related projects that no one is currently owning.

*Timestamp: 00:51:41*


## Bangaly Kaba
*Bangaly Kaba*

> "The framework is really that there's impact that you're really trying to drive and that is the thing that is the most important. And the impact is only achievable by looking at two sets of variables, a set of variables related to the environment, a set of variables related to your skills."

**Insight:** When choosing a role, optimize for impact by evaluating the quality of the environment and how it leverages your specific skills.

**Tactical advice:**
- Score environment variables (manager, resources, scope, team, compensation, culture) on a scale of 0 to 2.
- Re-evaluate these scores annually to identify what is limiting your ability to have impact.

*Timestamp: 00:07:18*


## Bob Baxley
*Bob Baxley*

> "I left Apple on a Friday and I started Pinterest on a Monday. I didn't give myself time to recalibrate to the Pinterest culture. I think at some level, a lot of the challenge is that Apple, and it's not just Apple, I think every major tech company, they have really powerful cultures. You get indoctrinated into all those standards and it's really deep."

**Insight:** Moving between strong company cultures requires a 'recalibration' period to shed old behaviors while retaining core values.

**Tactical advice:**
- Give yourself a multi-week or multi-month gap between high-intensity roles to 'wash off' the previous culture.
- Hold onto the values of your previous organization (e.g., excellence) but adapt your behaviors to the new culture's norms.

*Timestamp: 00:07:11*


## Bob Moesta
*Bob Moesta*

> "And you start to realize that all of these things where we think we have to pay more money, over 50% of the people who got new jobs didn't get more money. It's a lie. It's about progress. It's about what do they want to learn? What skills do they want to get?"

**Insight:** Career changes are primarily driven by a desire for personal progress and learning, not just salary increases.

**Tactical advice:**
- When interviewing candidates, unpack their 'metric of progress' to see if it aligns with the role's growth opportunities.
- Identify the 'pushes' (frustrations at the current job) and 'pulls' (attractions of the new role) to understand a candidate's true motivation.

*Timestamp: 00:26:08*

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> "The moment you stop making progress in your career is the moment you start looking for another job. And so over the last 15 years we've interviewed over a thousand people. I've coached almost a thousand people because I think there's a billion people a year who switched jobs and ultimately most of them end up with a job that's worse than the one they were at, but they don't know how to find it."

**Insight:** Career stagnation is the primary trigger for job seeking, but most people fail to find better roles because they lack self-awareness and a structured search process.

**Tactical advice:**
- Identify the 'pushes' (reasons to leave) and 'pulls' (desired outcomes) driving your move.
- Determine which of the four quests you are on: Get Out, Next Step, Regain Control, or Realign.

*Timestamp: 00:00:04*

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> "I call it a jobcation, which is a job I can go do with one hand tie by hide my back so I can rest and recover to go do something else. It's about actually being able to go to the gym and work out and have some vacations. The moment you are comfortable doing nothing, you know who you are again, and you can actually figure this out."

**Insight:** After a high-intensity role like a startup, a 'jobcation'—a lower-demand role—can provide the necessary space to recover and rediscover your professional identity.

**Tactical advice:**
- Look for roles where you are overqualified to allow for mental and physical recovery.
- Set a time limit on a jobcation to ensure it serves as a bridge, not a permanent stall.

*Timestamp: 00:00:27*

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> "The thing that I think has been most powerful is, again, treating you like a product. How do we prototype different job positions for you? So how do we think of you? ... It's this notion of starting by doing what we call informational interviews to other jobs that are out there."

**Insight:** Treat your career search like product development by prototyping different roles through informational interviews before committing to a path.

**Tactical advice:**
- Conduct informational interviews with people currently in roles you are curious about.
- Prototype 'wide' across different industries to see how your skills translate beyond your current field.

*Timestamp: 00:31:17*


## Boz
*Boz*

> "Jump into new things, give it six months. If it's not the thing, no problem. You just built a ton of new skills that's going to come in handy, I promise you that. Keep going."

**Insight:** Optimizing for learning and variety of experience early in a career creates a 'compound interest' effect that pays off in senior leadership.

**Tactical advice:**
- Give a new role at least six months to see if you can develop a passion for it.
- Don't fear moving horizontally if you have exhausted the learning potential in your current domain.

*Timestamp: 00:40:50*

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> "I think there's two really good places to be. I think one is carrying a lot of water in areas that the company's not paying attention to but you are important... The second-best place to be, or maybe equally, is on the most important thing."

**Insight:** Strategic career growth comes from either owning a critical but neglected 'dam' or being in the 'forge' of the company's top priority.

**Tactical advice:**
- Seek out 'rocket ship' projects where you can see how things work under extreme pressure.
- Alternatively, own a massive, stable area that the company relies on but doesn't micromanage.

*Timestamp: 00:42:12*


## Camille Fournier
*Camille Fournier*

> "Don't stop being a hands-on technical until you feel like it's in your bones... I do think it's probably somewhere in the 10-year range of really having spent a lot of your time over those years writing code and really understanding how to be a technical expert."

**Insight:** Engineers should achieve deep technical mastery (often requiring ~10 years) before transitioning into management to maintain long-term credibility.

**Tactical advice:**
- Wait until you have 'internal confidence' in your technical skills before moving to management
- Don't rush into management just because it's offered early in your career

*Timestamp: 00:21:18*

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> "The fact that you really don't own your time as a manager. Your team and your management and the company owns your time... individual contributors often think that if they become a manager, they will still have some of the freedom that they have as a senior individual contributor."

**Insight:** The most surprising shift for new managers is the loss of autonomy over their schedule and the transition to a service-oriented role.

**Tactical advice:**
- Prepare for a schedule that is reactive to the team's needs
- Shift mindset from 'command and control' to 'nudging and directing'

*Timestamp: 00:37:08*


## Christine Itwaru
*Christine Itwaru*

> "I'm seeing more PMs, like I said, go into the space. So, it's no longer being seen so much as a threat. It's being seen as this partner... if you love creating that healthy team environment and one where there's cross-functional collaboration and it fuels you to empower the team more, it's a wonderful fit for you."

**Insight:** PMs who are motivated by organizational health and cross-functional efficiency are ideal candidates for transitioning into product operations.

**Tactical advice:**
- Identify if you enjoy solving 'meta' problems (how the team works) more than specific product problems
- Transition into product ops if you find fulfillment in empowering other PMs to succeed

*Timestamp: 00:47:41*

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> "I strongly advocate for product ops leaders to have done that role, to have actually had hands-on product experience building and understanding customer problems and feeling that pain, because you very quickly realize where to place your efforts."

**Insight:** Hands-on product management experience is a critical prerequisite for leading a product operations function effectively.

**Tactical advice:**
- Leverage previous PM experience to identify which processes are actually 'painful' for the product team

*Timestamp: 00:50:45*


## Chip Conley
*Chip Conley*

> "What I love to see is not so much what roles you've had... Give me, in a paragraph, a thorny problem you faced. What was the problem, and what skills you used to actually accomplish it, and what was the result of that?"

**Insight:** When transitioning roles, focus your resume on problem-solving narratives rather than just job titles.

**Tactical advice:**
- Write resume bullet points as 'thorny problems' with clear actions and results

*Timestamp: 00:41:41*

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> "When you're interviewing, you're also interviewing them. When you're interviewing, it's not about you having to prove yourself. It's also for them to actually prove themselves as a company."

**Insight:** A successful career transition requires a mindset shift where the candidate evaluates the company's culture as rigorously as the company evaluates them.

**Tactical advice:**
- Approach interviews as a two-way evaluation of alignment

*Timestamp: 00:51:39*


## Christopher Miller
*Christopher Miller*

> "the founder was just like, 'I've read that the cure to all our problems is going to be hiring product manager,' and you heard that and you googled, what is product management, and then you asked them, 'Can I do that?'"

**Insight:** Breaking into product management often requires identifying an unmet need within your current organization and volunteering to fill it.

**Tactical advice:**
- Identify gaps in the organization where no one owns the customer problem
- Volunteer for 'shadow labor' or offload tasks from existing PMs to gain experience

*Timestamp: 00:17:22*

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> "choosing where you want to break in is almost as important as choosing that you want to break in the first place. Thinking about who you're going to be reporting to, thinking about what's the track record of success for people at that company, breaking into product management, trying to think five years in advance and work backwards"

**Insight:** When transitioning into PM, prioritize companies with strong mentorship structures and a history of successful internal transfers.

**Tactical advice:**
- Evaluate potential managers based on their ability to coach and sponsor new PMs
- Look for smaller shops for lower barriers to entry, but be wary of the lack of formal training

*Timestamp: 00:19:13*


## Claire Vo
*Claire Vo*

> "PM is such a generalist role, it's okay to go a little left and a little right to go up. I took this marketing growth role... It wasn't only for product, it was for marketing. And I had to learn marketing... but it was a foundation on which I could build a broader leadership career."

**Insight:** Lateral moves into adjacent functions like marketing or engineering can provide the foundation for broader executive leadership.

**Tactical advice:**
- Look for growth opportunities outside the immediate scope of product
- Use generalist PM skills to fill gaps in other departments
- Treat lateral moves as a way to develop the breadth needed for C-level roles

*Timestamp: 00:14:32*


## Dr. Fei Fei Li
*Dr. Fei Fei Li*

> "I chose to come to Stanford because... I was okay to take a risk of restarting my tenure clock. Becoming the first female director of SAIL, I was actually relatively speaking a very young faculty at that time, and I wanted to do that because I care about that community. I didn't spend too much time thinking about all the failure cases."

**Insight:** Successful career pivots often require a willingness to sacrifice short-term security (like tenure) for long-term impact and community alignment.

**Tactical advice:**
- Evaluate transitions based on the potential for impact and the quality of the ecosystem/team.
- Avoid over-focusing on downside risks when a move aligns with your scientific or professional 'North Star'.

*Timestamp: 01:06:42*


## Deb Liu
*Deb Liu*

> "I always balance learning and impact, which was you can have the most impact, the job you know the best, but then you stop learning. And if you're learning all the time, you're not necessarily having impact. So how do you keep going back and forth and back and forth so that you're not going straight up a lot or you're actually laddering back and forth into different things where you're having an amazing time where you know everything and then you're the newbie again and learning new things."

**Insight:** Career growth is non-linear and requires balancing periods of high impact (using existing mastery) with periods of high learning (being a 'newbie').

**Tactical advice:**
- Alternate between roles that leverage your expertise and roles that force you to learn new domains
- Don't fear being the 'newbie' again as it prevents career stagnation

*Timestamp: 00:03:35*

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> "The people who were most successful were the ones who actually through adversity, learned to turn stumbling blocks into stepping stones. They were the ones who got hard feedback and then came back stronger because now they learned what to do differently."

**Insight:** Resilience and the ability to convert failure or negative feedback into learning are the primary drivers of long-term career success.

**Tactical advice:**
- View hard feedback as a blueprint for improvement rather than a personal failing
- Focus on 'bouncing back quickly' from product or role failures

*Timestamp: 00:11:40*


## Donna Lichaw
*Donna Lichaw*

> "Pull your superpowers out of your stories from your past and your present, and then eventually figure out how to apply them and transpose them to your future. But if you look at your peak experiences from life, from work, but especially from life... when you can look at these three stories as moments in time and you can lay them on top of one another, what you see at key moments is your superpowers popping through."

**Insight:** To navigate career changes, identify recurring 'superpowers' in your past peak experiences to determine where you will be most effective in the future.

**Tactical advice:**
- Analyze three distinct peak experiences (childhood, recent past, and career path) to find common themes that define your unique strengths.

*Timestamp: 00:44:58*


## Dmitry Zlokazov
*Dmitry Zlokazov*

> "It's a quite substantial part of product owners who eventually become very successful by the way. So it's like a positive self-select, so it means that someone already succeeded in another role. So it's a guaranteed culture match, it's a guaranteed domain knowledge, and then they simply grow. Usually it could be operations managers or engineers."

**Insight:** Internal transfers from operations or engineering often become the most successful product owners due to existing domain knowledge and culture fit.

**Tactical advice:**
- Look for high-performing engineers or ops managers to transition into product roles
- Leverage internal transfers to ensure a 'guaranteed culture match' in the product org

*Timestamp: 00:21:18*


## Elizabeth Stone
*Elizabeth Stone*

> "I have been surrounded by amazing people in all these roles and I have a feeling that I learned a lot by osmosis and observation and then have been able to leverage that to be stronger in the roles I was sitting in."

**Insight:** Rapid career advancement is often fueled by active observation of peers and leaders to identify what works and what doesn't.

**Tactical advice:**
- Watch what successful people do and decide what to adopt or reject based on your authentic style
- Use 'osmosis' by surrounding yourself with high-performers during transitions

*Timestamp: 00:12:57*


## Elena Verna
*Elena Verna 3.0*

> "Full-time jobs are not the best way to monetize the skill that you have... My goal professional is actually to have options so I can choose what I want to do... Career optionality, being the ultimate north star for anybody in their professional journey."

**Insight:** Focusing on career optionality rather than specific titles allows for a more flexible and satisfying professional life.

**Tactical advice:**
- Evaluate every career move based on whether it increases your future options (e.g., advisory, fractional, or interim roles).
- Earn the right to optionality by building deep expertise in full-time roles before transitioning to horizontal work like consulting.

*Timestamp: 01:20:08*


## Eli Schwartz
*Eli Schwartz*

> "Build that growth advising muscle by staying on your day job. Don't quit your day job, and moonlighting and practice selling, closing, working, retaining, and that's where if you're successful there, you can be successful on your own."

**Insight:** Transitioning to a growth advisor role requires developing sales and client management skills while still employed, rather than just relying on operational expertise.

**Tactical advice:**
- Practice 'selling' and 'closing' through moonlighting before leaving a full-time role
- Focus on building a personal brand and consultancy framework rather than just being a 'freelance operator'

*Timestamp: 01:46:11*


## Eric Ries
*Eric Ries*

> "pivot is defined as a change in strategy without a change in vision. So we have this idea that the founder has the vision, then they try to figure out how to make the vision happen and they find a different way, but the vision stays constant."

**Insight:** A pivot is a strategic shift that maintains the original vision while changing the path to get there.

**Tactical advice:**
- Maintain fidelity to the vision
- Change the strategy based on learning
- Acknowledge that the vision itself may be discovered through the process

*Timestamp: 01:09:04*


## Fareed Mosavat
*Fareed Mosavat*

> "We are seeing a larger percentage of our executive network... working on things like newsletters, podcasts... full-time advisors, fractional heads of growth, fractional heads of product one day a week... they love it because of the flexibility that it creates for them. They love it because of the high upside and non-linearity of possibility."

**Insight:** Senior product leaders are increasingly transitioning to 'portfolio careers' that combine advisory, fractional leadership, and content creation.

**Tactical advice:**
- Develop 'specific knowledge' in a narrow niche where you can be among the best in the world
- Work at high-growth, reputable companies to build the professional 'clout' necessary for advisory roles
- Generalize your operating lessons into frameworks that can be applied across different industries and company stages

*Timestamp: 00:50:41*


## Gergely
*Gergely*

> "I told myself, if four years later Uber exits and I make a bunch of money, I owe it to myself to take a risk, because then I'll have four years of savings in my bank... I decided to leave Uber. And we'll talk about it a little later in the podcast, but I didn't plan like this, but I started writing a newsletter."

**Insight:** Financial safety nets from equity exits can provide the necessary runway to transition from a stable corporate career to high-risk entrepreneurial or creative paths.

**Tactical advice:**
- Use a major financial milestone (like an IPO or stock vesting) as a pre-planned trigger to take a professional risk.
- Ensure you have at least several years of savings before walking away from a high-compensation role to pursue a non-traditional path.

*Timestamp: 00:15:32*


## Gibson Biddle
*Gibson Biddle*

> "In your career, it's just a lot like building a product. You have theories and hypotheses, you find ways to experiment with them, and then you were successful or you failed."

**Insight:** Treat your career as a product by running small experiments to test hypotheses about new roles or industries.

**Tactical advice:**
- Formulate a career hypothesis (e.g., 'I would enjoy teaching')
- Run a 'baby step' experiment to test the hypothesis with low risk
- Iterate on your career direction based on experimental results

*Timestamp: 54:50*


## Gokul Rajaram
*Gokul Rajaram*

> "I think great careers are built by knowing a lot of people doing great work so they know and want you on their teams, and just waiting for serendipity and then seizing it and jumping."

**Insight:** Career growth is often non-linear and driven by building a network of high-performers and remaining open to serendipitous opportunities.

**Tactical advice:**
- Prioritize building relationships with smart people over linear promotion paths
- Help others without expecting immediate returns to build a 'reservoir of goodwill'
- Be curious about what others are working on outside your core role

*Timestamp: 00:05:57*

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> "I would much rather be the number two or number three person... in the leader in a space, than the top person. Say Google versus Yahoo. I saw even if you're the VP of product at Yahoo or the head of product at Yahoo versus a ICPM at Google, you probably want to be the ICPM at Google."

**Insight:** Joining a market leader provides an 'unfair brand halo' and access to higher-caliber talent that outweighs a more senior title at a secondary player.

**Tactical advice:**
- Prioritize the company's market position over your individual title
- Evaluate if a company has the potential to be the #1 player in its segment before joining

*Timestamp: 00:11:25*

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> "People who are joining the workforce new should generally join mid-stage companies because mid-stage companies you get some mentorship and it's not just basically whatever needs to be done and ultimately you don't build any deep skills. So mid-stage company I would define as something that is a multi hundred person company, but not maybe a thousand person company."

**Insight:** Mid-stage companies (300-500 people) offer the best balance of structured mentorship and the opportunity to build deep, specialized skills.

**Tactical advice:**
- Look for companies that have reached product-market-channel fit
- Target companies transitioning from a single product to a platform with multiple interlocking products

*Timestamp: 00:12:46*


## Graham Weaver
*Graham Weaver*

> "Imagine that you're walking home from work and you see this bright, shiny object. You walk over and you realize it's a magic lamp. And you rub the lamp and this genie comes out and the genie says, 'Hey, I haven't been in this bottle for 10,000 years yet, so I'm not fully formed. So I can't give you three wishes. But what I can do is I can give you one wish. And the wish I can give you is whatever you throw yourself into with your whole life and your career, it's going to turn out great.'"

**Insight:** Use the 'Genie Framework' to identify your true career desires by removing the fear of failure from the equation.

**Tactical advice:**
- Ask yourself what you would pursue if success were guaranteed
- Identify the 'genie goal' that is closest to your heart
- Work backwards from a successful 10-year outcome to determine your current path

*Timestamp: 00:09:19*

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> "The biggest question I think with respect to your career is, within reason, what would you do if you knew you wouldn't fail?"

**Insight:** Identifying your ideal career path requires stripping away the subconscious fear of failure.

**Tactical advice:**
- Ask: 'If you didn't have to make money, what would you do?'
- Identify 'play' for you that is 'work' for others
- Identify the thing you want to do but are too embarrassed to say out loud

*Timestamp: 00:16:08*

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> "You basically come up with nine lives. So you say your first life, life one is the life you have now... The first rule is all the lives have to start from today... And the second rule is you have to be excited about all these lives."

**Insight:** The 'Nine Lives' exercise helps de-risk career exploration by allowing you to envision multiple fulfilling paths simultaneously.

**Tactical advice:**
- List nine different lives/careers you would be excited to start today
- Identify which life gives you the most energy
- Pull elements of those 'other lives' into your current life as side projects or hobbies

*Timestamp: 00:43:23*


## Hari Srinivasan
*Hari Srinivasan*

> "I'd really start zoning in on roles where you might see if you don't have the functional experience, the industry experience. I think that would go a long way as how to help you differentiate from yes, what's probably more candidates, or more applications going into each role."

**Insight:** When pivoting roles, leverage deep industry knowledge to differentiate yourself from candidates with more functional experience.

**Tactical advice:**
- Target roles where your previous industry background provides a unique advantage
- Add specific credentials and work products to your skills profile to provide evidence of capability

*Timestamp: 00:24:30*


## Jackie Bavaro
*Jackie Bavaro*

> "Being a manager is not as much fun as being an IC. It's a lonely job. When your team goes out for drinks, they treat you differently when you're the manager than when you're one of the other ICs. It's more painful and less fun."

**Insight:** The transition to management involves a significant social and emotional shift that many ICs are unprepared for.

**Tactical advice:**
- Consider the 'loneliness' factor before pursuing a management track
- Treat the move to management as a 'two-way door' that you can reverse if it doesn't fit

*Timestamp: 16:01*

---

> "I think understanding that there's different ways to grow your impact and grow your career, other than getting promoted to people management... you can make a lot of money without getting that promotion title. If you're working at a small company, if you're working with other companies that isn't the highest paying company, you'll make a lot more money by switching companies than you will by getting promoted at your current company."

**Insight:** Career growth and financial success do not strictly require moving into people management.

**Tactical advice:**
- Use sites like levels.fyi to understand IC compensation benchmarks
- Look for high-impact IC roles in platform or partnership teams

*Timestamp: 17:38*

---

> "One mistake I see people make early in their career is they are trying to overdo it... A lot of times you've been assigned a problem where a huge creative solution is a bad idea. If you're in one of the situations, just do the simple thing, get it done really well. And that'll earn you the trust to be able to take on bigger things in the future."

**Insight:** Early career success is built on reliable execution of narrowly scoped tasks rather than reinventing the wheel.

**Tactical advice:**
- Focus on doing the 'simple thing' exceptionally well for your first projects
- Avoid over-engineering solutions for constrained problems

*Timestamp: 39:27*


## Janna Bastow
*Janna Bastow*

> "Being a PM actually provides you with a lot of the skills and background to be a founder, to be a CEO. It gives you a lot of chance to work with a lot of the different teams and see a lot of the underpinnings of how business works."

**Insight:** Product management is an excellent training ground for entrepreneurship because it exposes you to cross-functional business operations.

**Tactical advice:**
- Work closely with leadership in current roles to observe how business decisions are made
- Surround yourself with advisors for different functional areas (legal, finance, etc.) to fill knowledge gaps when starting a company

*Timestamp: 48:58*


## Jason Shah
*Jason Shah*

> "The framework I like is ladder versus map, and I think that you can be either person that any point in your life... Ladder is about moving up. It's more influence, more power, a higher title, things like this, whereas map is I just want to go wherever's interesting... I'm okay with discomfort because it's interesting."

**Insight:** Viewing a career as a 'map' rather than a 'ladder' allows for more growth through diverse, interesting, and high-risk experiences.

**Tactical advice:**
- Prioritize interesting problems and character-building experiences over linear title progression.
- Accept short-term discomfort or 'risky' moves if they lead to unique learnings and stories.

*Timestamp: 00:46:46*


## Jules Walter
*Jules Walter*

> "making that initial transition is really hard. What I've seen is the path that we just talked about, join a startup and then from there go into different companies. And then the other path that is typical is being at a company and then switching product management, especially if you develop domain expertise and there's a need for a PM."

**Insight:** Breaking into product management usually requires either joining an early-stage startup to get the title or transitioning internally at a company where you already have domain expertise.

**Tactical advice:**
- Join a startup as one of the first PMs to establish a track record.
- Leverage existing domain expertise to switch into a PM role within your current company.

*Timestamp: 00:06:46*


## Julia Schottenstein
*Julia Schottenstein*

> "I do have an unusual background, but it doesn't surprise me that people who are interested in product are also interested in investing and vice versa. For me, I've always had three interests broadly and that's an interest in business, an interest in technology and an interest in markets. And I get to express those interests both in investing and in product, but just with different weights."

**Insight:** Transitioning between VC and Product is natural because both roles require a balance of business, technology, and market analysis.

**Tactical advice:**
- Identify the common threads between your current role and your target role (e.g., business, tech, and markets).
- Leverage high conviction in a specific product or company to facilitate a move from investing into an operating role.

*Timestamp: 00:04:34*


## Karina Nguyen
*Karina Nguyen*

> "When I first came to Anthropic and I was like, "Oh my God, I really love front-end engineering." And then the reason why I switched to research is because I realized, "Oh my God, Claude is getting better at front-end. Claude is getting better at coding. I think Claude can develop new apps.""

**Insight:** The rapid advancement of AI in technical domains like coding can necessitate a career pivot from execution-focused roles to research-focused roles.

**Tactical advice:**
- Monitor the capabilities of the models you are building with to see if they are beginning to automate your own core technical skills.

*Timestamp: 00:00:06*


## Julie Zhuo
*Julie Zhuo 2.0*

> "I think it's so easy for a young person to go into their career and everyone is telling them... 'You need to get that manager title.'... I think sometimes people opt into this without knowing what they're actually signing up for. What are the trade-offs? And is that really what you want to do?"

**Insight:** Career unhappiness often stems from a mismatch between desired lifestyle/rewards and the actual daily work required for a role.

**Tactical advice:**
- Evaluate if a promotion to management aligns with your actual passions or just external pressure.
- Define your goals (e.g., 'deepening craft' vs. 'VP title') before committing to a new career path.

*Timestamp: 00:53:17*


## Kenneth Berger
*Kenneth Berger*

> "I was fired from Slack three different times... I spent that year being fully out of integrity with myself. Never saying what I really wanted, how I really felt because it didn't feel safe. I was too scared. I kept it all inside. And it took me six months or a year even after that to really feel safe and okay again."

**Insight:** Failing to advocate for yourself and ignoring feedback can lead to career setbacks and significant emotional burnout.

**Tactical advice:**
- Articulate what success looks like early in a new role
- Listen to 'nos' from management as data points rather than personal attacks
- Stay in integrity by expressing your true feelings and desires even when it feels risky

*Timestamp: 00:45:38*


## Kevin Yien
*Kevin Yien*

> "I discourage people from going straight into product management. If they want to become product managers, you encourage them to start somewhere else first. Why is that? ... The people that should be doing that are the people who are building it. That's an engineer, that's a designer, that's a sales person or a support person."

**Insight:** The best foundation for product management is starting in a role that directly builds or sells the product to understand the core value loop.

**Tactical advice:**
- Start as an engineer, designer, or salesperson to gain exposure to building and customer problems.
- Use these roles to develop a unique perspective before transitioning into a formal PM role.

*Timestamp: 00:03:45*

---

> "I land my first official, by title, PM job at a startup. I made it. I've arrived... the company is really struggling and so we go through a series of rolling layoffs and I'm round 4 something... my identity that has been completely crushed... I thought I was a product manager. This is evidence I am not."

**Insight:** Career setbacks like layoffs can trigger identity crises, but it's crucial to separate personal competence from business needs or environmental fit.

**Tactical advice:**
- Reflect on what was in your control versus what was a result of the business environment.
- Recognize that failing in one 'habitat' doesn't mean you lack the skills to flourish in another.

*Timestamp: 01:06:44*


## Lane Shackleton
*Lane Shackleton*

> "Moments that stretch you or moments that you feel uncomfortable in or you find yourself saying, "Oh shit. I shouldn't be here," or, "I'm under qualified to be here," those are the moments you should be seeking out. Those are the moments that stretch you and give you a new foundation. So oftentimes you'll hear a career question like, "Hey, do you feel like you're growing in your role?" And that's a very ambiguous, in my opinion, way to ask this question. A much sharper way is like, "Hey, how many, oh shit moments have you had in the last six months, year, two years, and what are they?""

**Insight:** Measure career growth by the frequency of 'oh shit' moments where you feel stretched or underqualified.

**Tactical advice:**
- Seek out roles or projects that make you feel uncomfortable or underqualified.
- Audit your last 6-24 months to count specific moments of significant stretching.

*Timestamp: 00:00:00*


## Lauren Ipsen
*Lauren Ipsen*

> "I think breadth is incredibly important. It's so critical, especially if someone has an end goal of wanting to step into a product leadership role to have been able to have touched lots of different components, as opposed to specializing in one specific thing."

**Insight:** To reach senior product leadership, PMs should optimize for breadth of experience across different product types and business units.

**Tactical advice:**
- Rotate through different areas like platform, core product, growth, or monetization.
- Mix experience between early-stage entrepreneurial roles and established 'academy' companies.

*Timestamp: 00:37:51*

---

> "Logo collecting is never something that you want to be known for... but there's also something to be said about staying somewhere too long though. And I will say that. I think sometimes you find people that are almost loyal to a fault... I think sometimes in your career you do have to be a little bit more selfish and think about what's going to be best for you in the long haul."

**Insight:** Balance the need for tenure and impact with the necessity of moving on when a company's growth plateaus.

**Tactical advice:**
- Avoid 'jumping' patterns (less than a year) unless there is a clear, honest reason.
- Ensure you stay long enough to leave a 'fingerprint' or measurable impact that others can verify.

*Timestamp: 00:41:27*

---

> "Work backwards from a goal for sure, but don't allow titles or valuation bubbles or other things to derail something that feels good. If you're in a role and you feel like you're making an impact and you're learning and you're growing and are excited about the work you're doing, do not allow a title of some other company to make you feel like what you're doing isn't worthwhile."

**Insight:** Career satisfaction should be driven by growth and impact rather than chasing external validation like titles or valuations.

**Tactical advice:**
- If your goal is CEO, move from product into GM roles with P&L ownership.
- Ignore title-only 'step ups' if the current role offers better learning and impact.

*Timestamp: 00:56:32*


## Manik Gupta
*Manik Gupta*

> "One inflection point that I've seen is, when you go from being a manager, a first line manager, to becoming a manager of managers, and if you're able to navigate that with very strong effectiveness, then you know... Because managing ICs is so different from managing managers, because then you now need to create a structure. You need to be able to determine how much you delegate. How do you coach? How do coach your managers to do the right thing?"

**Insight:** The transition from managing individual contributors to managing other managers is a critical career inflection point that requires shifting focus toward organizational structure and coaching.

**Tactical advice:**
- Focus on building scalable structures rather than managing individual tasks.
- Develop a coaching framework to help your direct reports become better managers themselves.

*Timestamp: 00:49:38*


## Maggie Crowley
*Maggie Crowley*

> "If you can get someone to stamp you with the product manager role, take it. Because... it's what we screen on... once you get that first job, it all gets easier."

**Insight:** Breaking into product management often requires securing the title first, as hiring managers heavily screen for prior PM experience.

**Tactical advice:**
- Seek lateral moves within your current company to get the PM title
- Target startups where you can convince a founder to take a chance on you
- Stay at a company long enough to see 2-3 cycles of the same product to learn the consequences of your decisions

*Timestamp: 00:31:42*


## Marty Cagan
*Marty Cagan 2.0*

> "You can raise your game so that you actually can contribute at this level. That's what you should do for your own career, but by the way, and not accidentally, that's what your company needs you to do... At a minimum, your company will appreciate it and probably promote you because you will be one of the few that actually understands these things."

**Insight:** PMs can transition from 'feature team' roles to 'empowered' roles by proactively upskilling in value and viability.

**Tactical advice:**
- Perform a self-assessment to identify gaps between project management and true product management.
- Take agency to move from being a 'backlog administrator' to a 'creator' within your current company.

*Timestamp: 00:24:09*


## Matt MacInnis
*Matt MacInnis*

> "It's why as an early career product manager, or it's why frankly at any stage of your career when you want to learn, you should join a winning team... I want to hear what they learned from being part of a winning team. And that's sort of one of my go to heuristics when I'm looking at candidate profiles."

**Insight:** Joining a successful, high-growth company provides more valuable learning than joining a struggling one.

**Tactical advice:**
- Prioritize joining 'winning' teams where you can observe success patterns firsthand.
- Look for companies in 'crazy growth mode' to accelerate your career learning.

*Timestamp: 00:15:57*


## Maya Prohovnik
*Maya Prohovnik*

> "I think that people who get acquired, especially founders, actually go through a relatively deep depression and existential crisis after getting acquired... you're like, wait, what is my job now?"

**Insight:** The transition from startup founder to large-company executive often involves a difficult psychological shift and loss of identity.

**Tactical advice:**
- Acknowledge the 'post-acquisition depression' as a common experience for founders
- Seek support from other acquired founders who have navigated the transition
- Focus on the new scale of impact rather than the loss of total ownership

*Timestamp: 00:43:59*


## Mayur Kamat
*Mayur Kamat*

> "The best thing you can do is find companies that are growing fast because it compounds your learning at a much faster interval."

**Insight:** Career growth is a function of compounding learning; high-growth companies provide more 'compounding events' per year.

**Tactical advice:**
- Prioritize high-growth companies over established ones early in your career.
- Look for 'category-defining' companies where you have to solve problems for the first time in history.

*Timestamp: 00:19:12*

---

> "Do not optimize for compensation, especially early in your career. If you're truly on a track to become an executive someday... you will make 90% of your compensation in the last five years of your career."

**Insight:** Early career compensation is negligible compared to the back-loaded earnings of a successful executive or founder path.

**Tactical advice:**
- Choose roles based on learning potential and superpower alignment rather than a 10-20% salary bump.
- Decide early if you want the C-suite path, as it requires different sacrifices and decision-making.

*Timestamp: 00:21:46*

---

> "Early career you want to be in intensely talents dense areas... For general tech, there's no better place than West coast of the US."

**Insight:** Physical proximity to talent density (like Silicon Valley) significantly accelerates career networking and opportunity access.

**Tactical advice:**
- If possible, start your career in a high-talent-density hub like the US West Coast, Dubai (for crypto), or Bangalore.

*Timestamp: 00:57:26*


## Molly Graham
*Molly Graham*

> "The way a lot of people do careers is a set of stairs. Just walk up the stairs and you'll get promoted every two years. But that is boring. The much more fun careers are like jumping off cliffs and you do fall, but then you climb out way beyond where the stairs could ever get you."

**Insight:** High-growth careers often involve taking high-risk roles for which you are unqualified, leading to a 'J-curve' of initial struggle followed by massive advancement.

**Tactical advice:**
- Embrace being a 'professional idiot' for the first 6-9 months of a new, challenging role.
- Distinguish between financial fear (which requires math and a 'burn rate' calculation) and the fear of failure (which is often a green light for growth).
- Ask 'dumb' questions in meetings to accelerate learning in unfamiliar domains.

*Timestamp: 00:28:05*


## Nabeel S. Qureshi
*Nabeel S. Qureshi*

> "They were extremely careful about only making people PMs who had first proven themselves out as forward deployed engineers. You basically could not become a PM any other way... the reason for that's pretty simple, it's going to be someone who understand how customers work and has that customer empathy."

**Insight:** The best PMs are often those who have 'proven their mettle' in customer-facing, high-stakes delivery roles first.

**Tactical advice:**
- Look for PM candidates who have successfully managed field deployments or direct customer problem-solving.
- Prioritize internal promotions from technical field roles into product management.

*Timestamp: 01:06:00*


## Nan Yu
*Nan Yu*

> "It's your job when you're in the interview process to figure out what that burning problem is. So, put on your discovery hat and go figure out what is the actual job to be done of the hiring manager when they're bringing on a new PM onto their team? And if you can do that and then make a good case that you are the person to solve that problem, then hiring you becomes a binary choice."

**Insight:** Treat a job interview as a product discovery exercise to identify the hiring manager's 'job to be done.'

**Tactical advice:**
- Ask the hiring manager about their specific OKRs and how a new hire can help achieve them.
- Position yourself as the specific solution to their burning problem rather than a generalist candidate.

*Timestamp: 01:04:51*

---

> "Just act like you already worked there. What would you do? ... During the interview loop... you can ask, 'Hey, can you put me in touch with an engineering manager who's working on the same problem?' And if no one else is asking, again, you're going to have an extra piece of feedback."

**Insight:** Differentiate yourself by performing the role during the interview process.

**Tactical advice:**
- Request to speak with cross-functional peers (like Eng Managers) to understand the team's challenges.
- Ask deep, specific questions that demonstrate you are already thinking about the work.

*Timestamp: 01:06:42*


## Nikita Miller
*Nikita Miller*

> "I think getting into startups as a product manager is a pretty awesome way to get into product because it's just a lot of problem-solving. The problem with that is you don't have anyone to teach you the right way, but the product will teach you the right and wrong way if you're with a team that is moving quickly."

**Insight:** Startups offer the fastest learning curve for aspiring PMs because they force exposure to every part of the product discipline.

**Tactical advice:**
- Look for roles in smaller products or companies to get hands-on experience with all functions
- Use the product's market performance as a feedback loop in the absence of formal mentorship

*Timestamp: 37:54*


## Nikhyl Singhal
*Nikhyl Singhal*

> "I tend to help and coach hundreds of folks through transitions. So if they're in a moment where they're trying to decide between another job, if they're trying to decide to leave, if they're having sort of an alert at work, I call them 911 calls. I take a few 911 calls every week and from a relatively large group of people. So I find those are the most substantive times to help people, is when they're in moments of dilemma or forks in the road"

**Insight:** Career transitions are critical 'forks in the road' where external coaching and objective advice are most impactful.

**Tactical advice:**
- Seek external perspectives during '911' moments of career dilemma
- Focus on the long-term arc rather than just the immediate next step

*Timestamp: 00:05:22*


## Noam Lovinsky
*Noam Lovinsky*

> "I always try to prioritize putting myself in positions that are going to cause a lot of growth and learning. And growth and learning can be very painful. ... I can find situations that are going to stretch me, that are going to force me to do things that I haven't done where I'm going to grow and learn significantly."

**Insight:** Optimize for roles that provide maximum 'stretch' and learning potential, even if the transition involves significant discomfort or pain.

**Tactical advice:**
- Seek out roles that require at least one or two entirely new skills to avoid stagnation
- Prioritize learning potential over high certainty of immediate success when choosing a new role

*Timestamp: 00:59:37*


## Paul Millerd
*Paul Millerd*

> "A three month sabbatical is much more attainable than people think. Companies are desperate to keep people and are much more open to things like this these days. And the way I frame it is if you're assuming you're going to work continuously in adulthood, that's about 500 months. Try to find three months of that where you can create space and reconnect with yourself, explore things, just see what emerges, see how you feel."

**Insight:** A three-month sabbatical is a small, manageable fraction of a 500-month career that allows for essential self-reconnection.

**Tactical advice:**
- Aim for a three-month block to allow for proper unwinding
- Frame the request to employers as a way to stay with the company long-term

*Timestamp: 00:16:31*

---

> "I've found it takes six to eight weeks just to unwind."

**Insight:** The psychological transition away from a high-pressure job requires nearly two months before true exploration can begin.

**Tactical advice:**
- Budget at least 6-8 weeks of 'unwinding' time before expecting creative breakthroughs

*Timestamp: 00:22:09*

---

> "I always tell people you need a boomer compatible story for what you're up to, as just give them something. Just say, 'I'm an entrepreneur,' or, 'I'm a business owner.'"

**Insight:** When transitioning to unconventional work, use traditional labels to satisfy the social expectations of older generations and reduce friction.

**Tactical advice:**
- Adopt 'legible' titles like 'entrepreneur' or 'business owner' to explain your path to family and friends

*Timestamp: 00:39:41*

---

> "I call it ship, quit, and learn, which is what is the quickest way I can ship something designed to quit, but as soon as I ship it, I learn about what to do next?"

**Insight:** Treat career experiments as short-term projects designed to be abandoned after they provide the necessary data for the next step.

**Tactical advice:**
- Design small experiments (like a 5-episode podcast) with a pre-set 'quit' date to lower the stakes of trying something new

*Timestamp: 00:45:45*


## Phyl Terry
*Phyl Terry*

> "I talk about this in the book. Sometimes you need a two-step strategy. Let's say you want to be a VP of product at a top streaming company or whatever it is, but you not a fit for that today. So the question is how do you step there?"

**Insight:** Use a two-step strategy to reach a goal role by taking an intermediate position that builds the necessary experience or proximity to the 'technology frontier.'

**Tactical advice:**
- Identify if your goal role is currently out of reach based on market conditions.
- Consider taking an individual contributor (IC) role at a top-tier company to reset your trajectory.
- Look for internal promotion opportunities from a role you are currently a fit for.

*Timestamp: 00:40:38*


## Raaz Herzberg
*Raaz Herzberg*

> "I had a ton to learn about marketing, with what I knew really well... I spent my life in engineering, and in any product, it's not the go to market side, even. I was never part of the go to market, or I have never heard of a lead in my life. I did not know the word "pipeline.""

**Insight:** Successful transitions into new functions rely on leveraging deep domain expertise while being willing to learn the tactical language of the new role from scratch.

**Tactical advice:**
- Follow 'good people' rather than a rigid career plan.
- Identify the 'heat' in the organization—the area where the most critical bottleneck exists—and move toward it.

*Timestamp: 00:24:11*

---

> "I do feel like an imposter, and I know there's always those statistics about many people feeling that way. So I think, maybe just, "Let's embrace it. I feel like an imposter, you feel like an imposter, everybody feels like an imposter," It's kind of, maybe embrace it, but don't let that stop you from making a decision."

**Insight:** Accepting that you are an imposter when starting a new role allows you to focus on the work rather than the fear of being 'found out.'

**Tactical advice:**
- Don't wait for confidence to take on a new role; be okay with the possibility of failing while attempting it.

*Timestamp: 00:54:09*


## Rachel Lockett
*Rachel Lockett*

> "When people are in their gifts and their strengths firmly, most of the time, they have more energy... I try to help my leaders see that they can design their lives so they're spending 80% of their time in their gifts."

**Insight:** Career satisfaction and energy levels are directly tied to how much time is spent working within one's 'Zone of Genius.'

**Tactical advice:**
- Track energy levels for two weeks: note 5 things that gave energy and 5 that depleted it daily.
- Aim to spend 80% of your time in your 'gifts' or strengths.

*Timestamp: 00:44:25*


## Ravi Mehta
*Ravi Mehta*

> "The advantage a smaller company has really is in latency. You can have an idea one day, you can test it the next day, and as a result you can have this really short cycle time between an assumption or a hypothesis and being able to validate that hypothesis. That's just not true at larger companies where there's a lot more momentum."

**Insight:** The primary advantage of a startup over a large company is low latency (decision speed) rather than total work volume (velocity).

**Tactical advice:**
- When moving to a startup, shift focus from high-velocity execution to reducing the time between hypothesis and validation.
- Boil down ambitious plans into smaller, iterative pieces that provide data every few days or weeks.

*Timestamp: 00:09:15*

---

> "I think it's important to plug into an early stage network as soon as possible... the people sort of really build their lifestyles and their careers around a particular stage. And there are some people that like to move between stages, but the majority of people don't."

**Insight:** Big company networks and startup networks are distinct; transitioning requires intentionally building a new network of builders, freelancers, and early-stage investors.

**Tactical advice:**
- Join communities like Indie Hackers or Everything Marketplaces to connect with early-stage builders.
- Connect with angel investors to understand current technology trends and early-stage challenges.
- Look for 'generalist' talent rather than specialists when hiring for the earliest stages.

*Timestamp: 00:13:04*


## Ryan Hoover
*Ryan Hoover*

> "There's many different ways to invest. There's, you know, angel investing is one... there's scouting... there's SPVs... raising a fund... one thing you can also do is just like pretend angel invest... write memos, or you can like almost create a fantasy portfolio... she was doing the job before getting the job, and anyone can do that today."

**Insight:** Transitioning into venture capital can be achieved by 'doing the job before having the job' through memos and fantasy portfolios.

**Tactical advice:**
- Create a 'fantasy portfolio' and write investment memos to prove your thought process to potential firms.
- Consider SPVs (Special Purpose Vehicles) as a way to build a track record without personal capital.

*Timestamp: 01:02:20*


## Ryan J. Salva
*Ryan J. Salva*

> "The decision to move as well, I think, was really focused not just on what GitHub was and maybe is at the time, but what GitHub also can be. ... to get to an opportunity to work on so many V1 products, like that is creation itself, to be able to build an entirely new product, get it out to market, test it, iterate on it, and really feed on the energy that's coming back from the community."

**Insight:** When transitioning roles, prioritize environments that offer high community impact and the opportunity to build 'V1' products from scratch.

**Tactical advice:**
- Evaluate potential roles based on the 'mind share' and community focus of the organization
- Look for opportunities to lead V1 products to maximize creative impact during a transition

*Timestamp: 00:09:28*


## Shreyas Doshi
*Shreyas Doshi*

> "For about a year, I was doing the product job without having the title and I was also the engineer. So I was in this great state where I'd figure out what needed to be built and I would just build it myself. So, that's how I started. And at some point during that one year, I realized that while I was a good engineer, I was perhaps a top 20% engineer. I realized that I would never be a great engineer, that I would never be a top 10% engineer because I saw those engineers, the fortune of working with them, and I just could tell that I couldn't be that."

**Insight:** Transitioning from engineering to product often involves identifying a personal performance ceiling in technical roles and starting to perform product responsibilities before the official title change.

**Tactical advice:**
- Look for opportunities to attend customer meetings as an engineer to understand user needs.
- Start building solutions for customer problems independently to demonstrate product thinking.

*Timestamp: 00:08:40*

---

> "I have to abandon the traditional path, that like, 'Oh, after this level, I'm supposed to do this, and then I'm supposed to do this, and then this is what society expects... Identify your superpowers, because if you identify your superpowers and work in accordance with them, you will do the best work of your life.'"

**Insight:** Career fulfillment requires aligning your role with your natural 'superpowers' rather than following a standard corporate ladder that may force you into work you dislike.

**Tactical advice:**
- Identify whether your 'happy place' is at the Impact, Execution, or Optics level.
- Be willing to move to earlier-stage products or smaller teams if you find 'optics' work (common in large orgs) frustrating.
- Make career decisions based on self-truth rather than envy or external expectations.

*Timestamp: 41:25*


## Shaun Clowes
*Shaun Clowes*

> "My career has been a little bit like a bingo card. I've always been looking to fill in boxes I didn't have filled because I felt like that would make me a better professional. It's like if I didn't know anything about that specific type of sales model or that type of marketing or that type of product management... well, if I learn about that thing, I will become more versatile."

**Insight:** Treating a career as a 'bingo card' of diverse experiences across different business models and functions builds unique versatility and pattern-matching skills.

**Tactical advice:**
- Identify 'empty boxes' on your professional experience card (e.g., consumer vs. B2B, sales vs. product) and seek roles that fill them.

*Timestamp: 00:56:42*

---

> "It's to constantly be choosing things that are either outside that, not totally outside the lines. Don't jump out of a plane if you've never parachuted before. Obviously you want them to be in some way and adjacency, that you want them to have something in common with what you know, but you want them to stretch you and change you."

**Insight:** Optimal career growth happens by taking roles that are 'adjacent' to your current skills but provide significant new challenges.

**Tactical advice:**
- Look for roles that share one commonality with your current experience but introduce two or three new variables.

*Timestamp: 01:00:41*


## Tomer Cohen
*Tomer Cohen 2.0*

> "We had somebody in our user research team. We had an opening for a PM on the growth team... She used all those tools, and she's now a growth PM on the team. And really, you can start thinking about her more as a full stack builder ultimately."

**Insight:** AI tools lower the barrier for career pivots by augmenting the technical or specialized skills required to move between functions.

**Tactical advice:**
- Encourage employees to use AI tools to bridge skill gaps when applying for internal roles in different functions

*Timestamp: 00:43:11*


## Tom Conrad
*Tom Conrad*

> "When I look back on my career and think about the things that I've done, my professional satisfaction is not well correlated with those external metrics and very, very coordinated with do I love the thing we were building and do I love the people I was working with?"

**Insight:** Professional satisfaction is driven more by product passion and team chemistry than by external success metrics or financial returns.

**Tactical advice:**
- Evaluate potential roles based on personal interest in the problem space
- Prioritize the quality of collaboration and leadership over company hype

*Timestamp: 00:12:25*


## Vikrama Dhiman
*Vikrama Dhiman*

> "My advice is if you're coming from design and research background, then you pick data or tech. If you're coming from a data or tech background, then you pick design and research, and that gives you the maximum leverage because that's a skill that you will necessarily not have developed over the years."

**Insight:** When transitioning into PM, focus on developing the core skill (Data, Tech, or Design) that is furthest from your previous background to gain maximum leverage.

**Tactical advice:**
- Identify your 'opposite' skill set (e.g., Tech if you are from Design) and prioritize learning it
- Leverage your existing strengths while aggressively filling gaps in unfamiliar domains

*Timestamp: 00:41:18*

---

> "It also makes a big difference if you are transitioning when you are slightly younger in your career. If you are already senior in a function and then you are transitioning, sometimes it can take a lot of time in transitioning and picking up those skills."

**Insight:** Transitioning into product management is generally easier and faster earlier in one's career.

**Tactical advice:**
- Be prepared to 'go slow' during a transition to build a foundation for faster growth later
- Seek a strong product leader to mentor you through the skill-shaping phase of a transition

*Timestamp: 00:44:14*


## Yuhki Yamashata
*Yuhki Yamashata*

> "I think that it's, first of all, a really great empathy building exercise of understanding that point of view, and also pushing yourself to push on the product from a different angle. Because I think as a PM, you're in the center facilitating all these different trade offs, and when you go into design, you have to ignore some of those other aspects to really be insistent on pushing on the best experience possible."

**Insight:** Switching between product and design roles builds deep cross-functional empathy and allows you to approach product challenges from multiple perspectives.

**Tactical advice:**
- Use role switches to understand the specific pressures and languages of other functions
- Suspend business/engineering feasibility temporarily when in a design role to push a vision

*Timestamp: 00:09:16*


## Ebi Atawodi
*Ebi Atawodi*

> "I genuinely think that some of the best product managers come from something else because you have empathy for being on the other side... already start product management, doing product management before you're a product manager. Open up your favorite apps. What are the top 10 problems you see?"

**Insight:** Transitioning into PM is best achieved by practicing the craft (identifying problems and imagining solutions) in your daily life before officially holding the title.

**Tactical advice:**
- Practice 'product sense' by identifying the top 10 problems in apps you use daily and sketching solutions

*Timestamp: 01:29:26*


## Farhan Thawar
*Farhan Thawar*

> "If you don't have a written down framework of the things you actually care about, it's very hard not to be distracted. ... I actually sent my framework to a recruiter one time and I said, 'Hey, this thing,' because they kept going back and forth to me and I go, 'Hey, this doesn't align with my framework.'"

**Insight:** Develop a personal decision-making framework to evaluate new roles and avoid being distracted by titles or compensation that don't align with your values.

**Tactical advice:**
- Write down a specific framework of values (e.g., learning, impact, people) before starting a job search
- Share your career framework with recruiters early to filter out misaligned opportunities

*Timestamp: 00:16:43*


## Naomi Gleit
*Naomi Gleit*

> "I sort of took the same approach showing up at the office asking if there were any roles... I had been doing the job voluntarily, almost informally for a few months. And I remember this because I had a seat on the third floor. I picked up all the stuff on my desk, put it in a box, walked down to the second floor once I got the job to become a PM."

**Insight:** To transition into a new role like Product Management, start doing the work informally and voluntarily before applying for the position.

**Tactical advice:**
- Volunteer for projects in the department you want to join
- Perform the duties of the target role alongside your current job to prove capability

*Timestamp: 00:11:08*


## Nickey Skarstad
*Nickey Skarstad*

> "I actually went through my calendar and I changed the colors of all of the meetings on my calendar to red, yellow, and green after I had the meeting. And I looked. And basically if it was yellow, I was like, okay. It was a fine meeting. My energy was baseline. If it was red, I was either bored or I was stressed, or I was not having a good time. And if it was green, it gave me energy and I felt excited and I wanted to keep working on that."

**Insight:** A 'calendar energy audit' is a powerful tool for determining if a role or company is the right long-term fit.

**Tactical advice:**
- Color-code your calendar (Red/Yellow/Green) based on energy levels after meetings
- Evaluate the ratio of 'green' energy tasks to decide if a career pivot is necessary

*Timestamp: 00:18:17*


## Paige Costello
*Paige Costello*

> "I evaluate whether I'm in a healthy role and in a good setup by asking myself about my learning curve... thinking about whether the environment is positively impacting your ability to grow your career... and the third piece is really around just the problem, the problem your product is solving."

**Insight:** Assess career moves based on three criteria: the steepness of the learning curve, the quality of the environment/team, and the inherent interest of the problem.

**Tactical advice:**
- Regularly audit your current role's learning curve to ensure you are still being challenged.
- Evaluate if your environment includes people who advocate for you and provide the right tools for success.

*Timestamp: 00:52:50*


## Sanchan Saxena
*Sanchan Saxena*

> "My advice to people is go get a job which will make you the fastest learner in the field of product management. That is what will help you a lot. No course, no degree, none of those things will help. The most important thing will be how quickly can you jump in, learn the auto product management."

**Insight:** Prioritize learning speed and hands-on experience over formal credentials when starting or pivoting into a product career.

**Tactical advice:**
- Choose roles based on where you will learn the fastest
- Balance the 'art' of intuition with the 'science' of data early in your career

*Timestamp: 00:08:51*

---

> "You got to figure out what are you optimizing for, what goes well with you. I've seen many successful leaders who will get choked up in a big company environment, and I've seen many big company successful executives who want to choke up in a very startup environment."

**Insight:** Understand whether you thrive in 'starter' (0 to 1) or 'scaler' (1 to N) environments before choosing a new role.

**Tactical advice:**
- Identify if you prefer the unencumbered hacking of a startup or the scale mechanisms of a large company
- Recognize that different stages of company growth require different PM skill sets

*Timestamp: 00:11:23*


## Scott Belsky
*Scott Belsky*

> "If I knew then what I know now, I would not have done this... Then, quit. Your life is short. You have a great team. Pivot. Do something completely different. If you've lost conviction, you should not be doing what you're doing in the world of entrepreneurship."

**Insight:** The decision to pivot or transition should be based on whether your conviction in the solution has increased or decreased after gaining real-world knowledge.

**Tactical advice:**
- Regularly ask: 'Knowing all I know now, do I have more or less conviction in the problem and solution?'
- Distinguish between a 'bad day' and a genuine loss of conviction before making a major career move

*Timestamp: 00:45:12*


## Tamar Yehoshua
*Tamar Yehoshua*

> "I never had a five-year plan... follow people. You learn the most from people. I don't look for domains... you follow people who are the best at what they do. So it's not good enough to follow somebody who you like. You want to follow somebody who's either the best product thinker or the best engineer or the best salesperson."

**Insight:** Career growth is better achieved by following high-caliber mentors and peers than by following a rigid long-term plan.

**Tactical advice:**
- Identify the best practitioners in your field and seek opportunities to work with them.
- Join companies where there is a 'nexus' of great people to build a lasting network.

*Timestamp: 00:19:12*

---

> "Take a job where if you hire people, it's going to make their careers... you want to make sure that it's going to be a good place for them and that they're going to learn and they're going to grow. And so you want to do right by them. And you really earnestly want to say you can make your career by coming here."

**Insight:** As a leader, evaluate roles based on whether the company's trajectory will allow you to accelerate the careers of those you recruit.

**Tactical advice:**
- Avoid 'turnaround' jobs if they don't offer a clear path for your team's growth.
- Prioritize learning opportunities over unpredictable financial returns when choosing a role.

*Timestamp: 00:22:43*


## Carilu Dietrich
*Carilu Dietrich*

> "I think the executive track isn't for everyone..."

**Insight:** Getting to the C-suite requires intentionally working harder than peers.

**Tactical advice:**
- Work two hours later than everyone else
- Volunteer for cross-functional projects

*Timestamp: 00:04:55*


## Melissa Perri
*Melissa Perri*

> "If you're a product owner... try to take some ownership over strategic work."

**Insight:** Product owners transition by proactively taking ownership of strategic work.

**Tactical advice:**
- Ask to sit in on customer research
- Push back on features by asking about outcomes

*Timestamp: 00:57:14*


## Sam Schillace
*Sam Schillace*

> "You should go do the thing that you feel guilty to get paid for."

**Insight:** Best career moves are toward work that feels so natural you feel guilty getting paid.

**Tactical advice:**
- Notice what feels like flow
- Stop gravitating toward unpleasant work

*Timestamp: 00:00:00*


